University of California Professor- Sonja Lyubomirsky
Podcast Summary
In episode #62 with Sonja Lyubomirsky, distinguished positive psychology professor, author, and speaker, you will learn why conversations may be the ultimate happiness intervention, about the connection between motivation, habits, and happiness, and how slowing down 10% may be exactly what you need.
Sonja is a literary pioneer in the science of happiness and positive psychology. She has an incredible history with fellowship awards and she is the author of two incredible books: The How of Happiness and The Myths of Happiness, and she is working on a future one as well.
I have been following Sonja for many years and she is one of the top people I think of regarding happiness professors and experts. I heard Sonja speak at the World Happiness Summit last year, and I am a super fan of her work!
Contact Information for Sonja Lyubomirsky
Website: https://sonjalyubomirsky.com
Transcript
Tia Graham: Hi Sonya.
Sonja Lyubomirsky: Hi Tia. Pleasure to be here talking to you.
Tia Graham: Oh, I'm so excited. Very, very excited to have you. So, I would like to start off by understanding what put you specifically on this path to happiness. You know, you have been researching it, you are an expert. Your books, just all your scholarly work. What was that point that, you know, how do you take this path compared to many others that you could?
Sonja Lyubomirsky: have gone on?
It was actually serendipitous. Um, I went to, when I went to grad school, uh, to get my PhD in psychology. Uh, the very first day of graduate school, this is at Stanford University, I met with my advisor. His name is Lee Ross, and he is one of the world's experts on conflict and negotiations. So, like, kind of like the opposite of happiness.
Yeah. But the very time we talked, we walked around campus, and I don't know who raised it first. Probably him. Um, uh, he said like, what do, what do you think is the secret to happiness? And, and why do you think some people are happier than others? Um, and so we ended up having a really long conversation about that.
And, and then I started looking up into the research. And back then, this was in 1989? Yes. So, when, 30 years ago, there's only one person named Ed Diener. Yes. Um, studying happiness and yeah, he called it subjective wellbeing. And that term was still stuck, kind of the scientific term for happiness. Yeah. Um, and so that's, that's where it started.
Tia Graham: Oh my gosh, that is such a great story. And wow. Think about the explosion that has happened since 1989 and, and continues to. So, um, one of the, one of the parts that we connected on before was, There's, you know, there's so much to human happiness, right. Or sub subjective wellbeing. And, but you wrote to me the key to happiness and, and you put connection and, and um, of course there's even like the book that just came out, the Good Life from the Harvard grant study, you know, of just this, this idea that it is about human connection.
And so, from your perspective, can you share with people. what this actually means in e in in everyday life of, you know, people working full-time. They have kids, they, you know, they're busy, lots going on. Talk about this, this key to happiness being connection from your perspective and your research. Sure, sure.
Sonja Lyubomirsky: Well, first of all, it sounds like a cliche, right? Like connection is a key of happiness, relationships with a key of happiness. Um, but sometimes you have to spend decades of research. To land on kind of a cliche of finding that sort of a cliche. Um, yeah, but the way that I landed on it is that for the last like 20 years, my lab and I have been doing what we call happiness interventions or Positive Activity Interventions where we try to sort of, they're kind of like clinical trials. Yeah. But instead of testing a new drug or a vaccine, we're testing whether particular strategies make people happy. Like does expressing gratitude make people happy? Um, when you randomly assign some people to express gratitude, and some might do something more neutral.
Do does doing acts of kindness make people happy? And what I realized, uh, a few years ago is that almost anything that we have done, and other people have done to try to make people happier works because it makes them feel more connected, right? So, when I, when you express gratitude to your mom, you feel more connected to your mom, you know, in most gratitude letters.
Are actually written to people. Um, sometimes you can of course, express gratitude for your health or something's kind of abstract, but it's almost always other people. Um, and then when you do acts of kindness for other people, usually it's not anonymous, it's like actual person. Or even when it's anonymous, you might imagine someone like receiving your gift or your charitable contribute contribution Anyway, so.
Um, so the last few years we've been sort of focused on trying to understand like, so maybe it's really like a sense of connection that matters. And of course, there's lots of research showing connection matters for both happiness and health. Yeah. You know, that's a whole other conversation about physical health, um, and how do you foster connection.
You mentioned how people are busy. Um, and they have to balance a lot of things. And when I say connection, I don't mean like you have to spend two hours a day, you know, cultivating this one particular relationship, right. It, there's so many different ways to foster connection. It could just be you smile at a person walking by you on the street and it makes you feel good.
It makes you have the sense that like we're all. Kind of interdependent. Like we are all humans on this planet, you know? Um, it could be, you know, making a, a phone call to a friend. So, there's many different ways to, to foster that sense of connection that don't all have, take a lot of time. Yeah.
Tia Graham: It's just like thinking about from the moment you wake up until you go to bed.
Right. There's all of these opportunities for a moment. Um, and of course so many people are feeling isolated. There's this talk, like a lot of people are feeling lonely, right? Because, you know, maybe they're not out walking down if, if, if you're home, you're working all day and you're, you're just on your computer and you don't have those moments, those micro moments it sounds.
Yeah. Causing that, the disconnection. So, I like it. Right.
Sonja Lyubomirsky: Although you can of course connect online and by texting and, you know, um, research shows that connection is stronger when it's in person, but it's also pretty strong when it's not in person. In fact, well, we have a study that showed that phone calls and video calls were just actually, we're experienced as equally connecting in person.
So, which is surprising, but less connect, more connecting than like text or social media. So, anything having to do with voice actually. Yeah. When you think about what do those three things have in common? In person, video, and phone. Um, feels connecting. So, yeah. So, you can, you can feel connected even when you're isolated at home, although I don't recommend that.
Right. For too long
Tia Graham: periods. Yeah. Right. That's interesting about the voice. Yeah. One of my friends has got me into the habit bit of, I send video. Messages. So as sending is sending a text, like on someone's birthday, I'll do a little 42nd video. Mm-hmm. and people are.
Sonja Lyubomirsky: like, oh my gosh,
Tia Graham: dang. You know, it just, it, it comes across as more.
Sonja Lyubomirsky: connecting.
So, what actually can I ask, um, in this interview, what, um, what, uh, platform do you use for video
Tia Graham: messages? So, some I'll just use, like, I'll film a video on my iPhone and then I'll just text it. Or, um, I sometimes will do videos through LinkedIn also. Mm-hmm, maybe it's like a business contact that I haven't, you know, I worked with seven years ago and be like, oh my gosh, we should catch up.
Sonja Lyubomirsky: You know, that kind of thing. That's such a great idea because I usually do my friends and I do audio messages like a WhatsApp, which makes it really easy to do audio. And, and at first it seemed like, well, why are we doing this? Should we just talk on the phone? But it turns out, again, we're all busy and it's so much easier to like while you're driving or I don't know, like getting ready for work or taking a walk.
Yeah, you leave a message, you have all your thoughts collected, and again, video I think is even better. And then like when I'm driving next, I, I listen to my friends, you know, I have a friend. My best friend lives in Barcelona, which is far away. And the time difference makes it harder to talk. Yeah. And then we, I listen to her messages and it's so easy.
And what's beautiful about that also is that you feel a person is really listening to the entire content, right? So, if you wanna leave lots of thoughts that if something just happened, usually if I'm having a conversation, like they'll interrupt. I mean, interrupt for good reasons. They'll ask questions.
They might be a tangent. Yeah. And this way I know they're gonna listen to the whole thing. I listen to their whole message and then I, I usually take notes and I'll respond to like, anyway, I, I'm all for it. I think these are great ways to foster a sense of connection, also to maintain friendships and relate.
Tia Graham: yes. And a huge part for me. So, for I, I am married, and I have two daughters that are six and eight. For me, a key aspect of connection or I'd say, gosh, a tool is to be very intentional and conscious that your phone is away. You know, it's very easy. Like my husband and I'll go up for dinner date night.
I could be like, we're both on our phone, maybe checking, and I'm like, oh my God, no. Put our phones away. And it's not like we're trying to just not talk to each other. It's just so, you know, engrained in our lives. Or if I'm like playing Lego with my daughter and my, I'm like, no, put my phone in the bedroom.
Like, I'm just gonna play Lego right now with her. But I find that you have to be very intentional cause it's easy to just have it glued. I don't know if you related all that to that, but
Sonja Lyubomirsky: Absolutely.
Tia Graham: And like phones can, can make us feel disconnected even when you're right there with someone you love.
Sonja Lyubomirsky: Yeah, there's a nice study done by, by Liz Dunn at UBC where she had people either have their phones on a table, like at a restaurant, at like a group dinner or dinners versus like put them away and people were, um, you know, had more, um, were happier sort of having dinner without their phones. Um, yeah, so I mean, obviously the, the technology in and the younger, younger people really are, um, are so used to.
Like embedding it completely into their life. So, the phone doesn't have to be disconnecting, obviously, you're like sharing videos or music or something or like, oh look, look, I, you know, look, I just found out this something happened in the news and you're sharing it. So, so it's not always disconnect. Um, but absolutely we need to, to have sort of that balance and sometimes just be completely in the moment, completely be present for the other person.
Yeah. And I, I need to learn to do that myself better as well. No,
Tia Graham: it's a constant Alva No, it's a constant struggle. So, you also wrote about the importance of conversation specific. Can you elaborate on it?
Sonja Lyubomirsky: Um, on, well, speaking of exactly, speaking about connections, sort of how do we connect most of the time by talking to others?
I mean, yes, you can connect by sitting next to each other and not saying by touching, you know, other ways, but usually it involves speech, and it usually involves conversation, even if it's a very, by conversation I would mean broadly even like a very brief kind of social interaction where you're talking.
And so we decided we should study conversations because maybe conversations are kind of. The glue, the main like tool that you connect. Um, and, uh, we, we've, so there's a study that was done that showed that basically just having a 35-minute zoom conversation with a stranger made people like a lot happier than they were before.
Which really surprised me cuz I'm, I'm an extrovert and if someone says to me, hey, do you wanna have a Zoom conversation with a friend, uh, stranger today, I'd be like, I don't know. I'd rather do something else. Right. Yeah. But it turned out people on average, even like the introverts, felt happier, you know, after having this conversation.
So, we're like, wow. So maybe just having a conversation with someone is like the ultimate happiness intervention. You don't have to express gratitude, you don't have to meditate, you know, just, just converse. Um, and other studies have shown that just talking to like your barista when you order coffee, as opposed to using like that mobile app.
Yes. You know, when you don't talk to anyone, makes people happier. Talking to strangers on a train makes people happier than if they're just sitting like reading or like not talking to anyone. Um, and so again, I think it's, I think it's a really important to study conversations as like the like kind of, not the glue, but yet kind of like the tool that we use.
Tia Graham: I like how you said the ultimate happiness. Yeah. And that connects. You know, us, feel us feeling connected. There's that, like the spiritual component, the physical component, relational, everything. I love that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So, in the, um, you sent me a study as I, when I was preparing for my TEDx talk and um, and I quoted it.
I mean, I wanted to say so much, but you only have so much time. Um, and I said, it takes, well you said, and I quoted it. Mm-hmm, um, it takes a will and a proper way to successfully pursue happiness. And many people ask me about, I would say both, but I wanna kind of start with the will piece of how do you keep choosing it?
How do you keep choosing happiness for yourself? Right. That will piece when. There's needs, you know, that your family needs you or your boss is this, or all these different aspects that make life feel like a whirlwind. Mm-hmm. right to, mm-hmm. to choose it for yourself. And I feel like you have to keep choosing it when life knocks you down or something happens with your child, or gosh, you got laid off.
Like all these thousands of people in the tech industry are, who knows, right? Life keeps throwing you challenges is. I'd like to know, you know, just from your perspective how to, how to choose it and how to keep choosing it.
Sonja Lyubomirsky: Right. Well, I guess my first answer, I guess first of, I start with a caveat, which is that I don't wanna imply that like everyone should be focused on happiness and be working on their happiness.
Not everyone wants to, some people think that they're happy. Some people think that, you know, they don't wanna be happier because happiness is associated with kind of looking at the world with the rose-colored glasses, which we can talk about that as well. Yeah. Um, some people think that there's, they sort of do a cost benefit analysis, maybe the effort to become happier.
This is not, you know, is not worth the kind of the benefit. Um, so I'm, so I'm only gonna speak to those who really, really want to choose happiness, right? So, the ones who really are motivated, that's where the will comes from. So, so first you have to be motivated and I assume, like you know, your listeners are already motivated.
To become happier. So then how do you kind of maintain that motivation? Kind of like if you're motivated to lose weight or become more fit, or to raise happy and healthy children, you know, how do you kind of maintain that behavior or that habit? So, the word habit, I think, is key. You have to kind of create a habit.
Um, and it could be every morning. I don't know, like it could be like everyone has like rituals, you know, some kind of ritual, um, that is very different for other people. Some people use an app for, some people have like a bracelet and they, every time they look at the bracelet, it reminds them, I'm gonna choose happiness today.
Or, um, you do a gratitude writing exercise in the morning, um, or you meditate, you do breathe work, you know, sort of whatever. You know, you do yoga, whatever. For you. Yeah. Um, but it may, it, it, it involves kind of creating a ritual that you can maintain. Uh, and if you fall off the wagon, that's okay too. You know?
Cause you can just start it up again. Yes,
Tia Graham: yes. Yeah. So, it sounds like this, the, that everyone needs reminders, right? Even the people who really want to and have that motivation that, um, that, that you need that, whether it's like in your environment or with it with a daily action that you do like a ritual that you do.
Um, and would you say because of our, the way that our brain is wired, that it's, it's easy to fall off the wagon. Like it's, it's easy to go to. I, guess I'm kind of wanna hear your perspective, I guess, a little bit on like negativity bias of humans.
Sonja Lyubomirsky: Yeah. I mean, we have the negativity. We have a negativity bias, and it's useful because we do need to attend to kind of threats and dangers and concerns and things that, you know, might, might happen Yeah.
That are negative. So, we don't wanna be all positive all the time. Um, so, so maybe that's why it takes sort of deliberate effort to kind of overcome it at times when is appropriate. Like sometimes like you have an exam coming up or something important or your child is having a big problem, like you need to focus on that and.
Not necessarily be, I mean, be like health, health, health. Healthily positive. You know, you don't wanna, um, live under like positive illusions. Right. Um, but yeah. But the habits are really hard to, you know, develop and maintain. Doesn't mean they're impossible. And there's lots of sort of research and books about that.
One of my friends and colleagues tell Ben Shahar, who's a happiness teacher, you may know he gives talk. I studied with him for a year. Oh, you did? Oh yeah. He's so wonderful. What a. Maybe not such a coincidence. Um, so he, in his talks, I remember hearing a talk of his in Mexico and he talked about how, you know, we all, like, we all get up and like every morning we brush our teeth.
Like every single person in this room brushed their teeth this morning. But if you go back ages, no one brushed their teeth. Right? So how did we end up doing that? Like if we can brush our teeth every single morning? Yeah. If we learn to do that and we pretty much never forget, doesn't that mean that we can also create lots of other habits that are, you know, that are different?
Yes. So that gives me optimism. That is possible, but it takes like effort and um, I'm a runner and I remember reading in a book that it takes 10 weeks to run like on a regular basis before it becomes like habit, where you sort of don't think about it, you just get up and you do it. And I don't know if that's based on research or if that's just someone's sort of experience.
Yeah. But I sometimes I keep that in mind like it takes. A certain number of times, maybe it's 10 times or 50 times before you do something and then it becomes a habit. Yeah, the neuropathic
Tia Graham: is strong. I tried to create a meditation habit on my own for four years. I would meditate maybe once or twice a week, but I was like, I wanna do a Delia.
And finally, I hired a meditation coach. And she helped me create a habit. So now I do it every single morning. It's the first thing I do. But after four years of trying it on my own, I was like, I still really want this habit. I haven't, like in four years, if I haven't figured it out, uh, I don't think I'm gonna be able to.
Sonja Lyubomirsky: what was the secret? What was the secret? Oh gosh.
Tia Graham: One, I think I invested in that right. Her, I paid her to be my coach, so I was like, mm-hmm, okay, I'm investing money and time in that. I think that was it. Mm-hmm. Um, she just, she talked a lot about okay, what time of day, like, and also of course, the benefits of doing it.
And she helped me connect to, um, My future self. Very early on we did this amazing meditation. I started crying and it wasn't even, it was like myself in three years. Mm-hmm. and just that of, cuz I've really been working on cultivating calm and inner peace as this journey I've been on over the last 18 months.
And so that, and then also she taught me all these different types of meditations. Mm-hmm. and um, you know, there was an educational component about it too, which just understanding meditation from like, I guess a student perspective. Um, and, but I would say also like I'm, I didn't wanna let her down, you know?
Mm-hmm. like,
Sonja Lyubomirsky: I think there was a bit of that, like accountability, public commitment. Right. Investing. So, yeah. So, you're, you're all these components you mentioned are all these that's supported by research, the importance of public commitment and like investing in something. So, there's dissonance reduction that happens like, well, I've invested money and time, therefore I must care about this.
Right. It'll be kind of dissonant if you if you didn't. Um, and there's, there's also research on something called implementation intentions, which are basically, if then plans. If or when you could call it like, when I am, you know, brushing my teeth, I will take my medicine. Right. That's so people stack it.
Use those for like medicine, right? So, when I, like you say like, when I get up, like with running for me it's like I get up and I don't think about it. Cause if you start thinking about it, you're like, oh, I don't wanna go or I need to do this and like, put on my, my clothes, my shoes are right there. I just put them on right away without thinking about it.
So, um, yeah. So that's another feature of how to create a.
Tia Graham: Yes, yes. Yeah, absolutely. Um, so there's so much research at, right since you said 1989, which is, which is unbelievable. Um, what, what areas are you excited about right now? I guess when you think about, you know, this year, what, and, and it's so cool that you have this lab and you get to do all these different, you know, interventions and experiments, but what are you excited about?
I guess you're kind of like the next frontier for sure.
Sonja Lyubomirsky: Sure. Um, well, we've already started talking about that connection and conversations. We have a study that we're gonna do where we're gonna look at whether conversations make people happy, but also just hanging. So, like I love going to coffee shops and just working.
Or like hanging out, like sit and there be other people in the, in the coffee shop. I don't talk to them, but just the presence of other people makes me happy. So maybe, maybe just sort of hanging out also, um, is, um, happiness promoting. We're li we're that, I'm excited about that. We're now also have a collaborate in Israel who studies listening and good listening kind of, um, um, high quality listening.
because when you think about like, what makes for a good conversation? Well, if you're a good listener, right? And, and when you make the other person feel understood and they, you make you feel understood, like you're really hearing each other. So, we're beginning to study that. So, we're going, or we're going to study that.
That's exciting. And then finally, I have like a whole other line of research. Um, uh, I'm, I wanted to sort of jumpstart a field called psychedelic social psychology. So, there's been a lot of psychedelic sciences as in news a lot recently. Yes. When I started doing. Three years ago, only three years ago, it was all, it was.
Even then, it was still kind of like a little stigmatized. I mean, it still is, I guess, in some corners. And so, I have a paper, a couple of papers about the, uh, effects of M D M A on social connection. Yeah. So, M D M A other otherwise known as Molly or ecstasy, is a substance that fosters really deep, like feelings of warmth and bonding, like feelings of love and connection.
it's a drug that can be used as a win, like to study. Mm-hmm. How to foster connection, kind of as a window into how connection can be, um, fostered. And also, maybe in practical context and applied context, people who are lonely or really feel disconnected or have social deficits, like they have mental health conditions.
Yeah. Where they have social obstacles. Might use a drug maybe once or a couple times to sort of help them, uh, feel connected. And so, it doesn't have to be on the right, it can just be maybe you just use it once or couples can use it. It's almost like a jump strike that can.
Tia Graham: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Oh, that's super fascinating.
Yes. Yeah. You, you do hear about more, more Karen Guggenheim at the, you know, the World Happiness Summit. Yeah. She said so many different people are, have been reaching out to her un, you know, related to, um, psychedelics and then the connection with happiness that she's, she over the last few years, like there, there's definitely seems to be.
More and more people.
Sonja Lyubomirsky: Interest. Absolutely. And it's not a, it's not a panacea. So, I sometimes I worry that, like, now there's so many people who are like, oh, oh, I'm gonna have, like, psychedelics are gonna solve all my problems. So obviously that's not, um, that's not gonna happen, but right. You know. Um, the key is like, whenever you have an insight, like, like whether it's you take m d a and you feel really close and loving and grateful and empathetic, and then you realize like, wow, I can do this, but I could, you know, I could feel this, I could do this myself.
I don't need the substance. Yeah. Or you have an insight, like people take, you know, um, mind altering substance and they're like, oh, I have this insight that the important thing is love, or I really should focus more on my son who has a problem that I haven't been focusing on, or, or whatever it is, or I need to change my career.
Of course, the key is not the insight, but it's actually putting into practice, right? Meant to do it. Like, talk about creating a habit that changes you.
Tia Graham: That it's that, oh, super valuable. Okay, so my last question is many, many, almost everyone. Uh, I usually work with corporations, but you know, leaders, again, high, um, high stress, high pressure, juggling many things.
People always ask me again about work-life balance, but about just like the level of stress. And so I wanted to ask you for people listening cuz it's a lot of the people listen who feel like they have a lot of stress all the time from work, from kids, from marriage, from their family economy who know, you know the news ex everything.
So, what's your advice for people who are feeling chronically.
Sonja Lyubomirsky: Yeah. Wow. Um, I don't think, I'm not really an expert on stress, but I think, uh, you mentioned a couple things in this, in this conversation that is, that I think are, are very feasible, reasonable. Um, uh, effective solutions, you know, and they're really things like meditation right there.
There's certain strategies that people can learn that will at least help them reduce some of that stress, like, like meditation or exercise. Um, but also, I guess one thing is just think, think about, and it depends on kind of who you're talking about. Because if you're like, um, you know, low, you know, if you have like low socioeconomic status and you don't know where your next paycheck is coming from and your kids maybe lack of basic healthcare and safety needs, you know, that is incredibly stressful and we need to change society, right?
Yes. We need to. You, there's has to be systematic changes. And so, I don't wanna tell that person, oh, you should just meditate. Yeah. You know? No,
Tia Graham: I'm talking about Yeah. The people working in a company that Yeah. Needs are met. Right. You're talking about like.
Sonja Lyubomirsky: Yeah. Like high powered. Yeah. And so, then we, we then we wanna talk, talk, think about like what ultimately makes us happy, makes us thrive and makes us flourish.
And. and I, some of us certainly, and, and I think I'm probably one of them, I'm kind of a workaholic. So, like, are we just like too driven and ambitious and maybe we should slow down, right? And, um, we'll be happier. We certainly hear lots of stories of people who have slowed down and have gotten healthier and happier.
Um, on the other hand, there's nothing wrong. Like some, some of us are doing some these, some of these individuals are probably doing amazing work, right? And they love their work, like I'm sure you right? They love their work, so yeah, they don't wanna slow down, but there probably are ways to somehow maybe slow down a little bit.
I mean, that's maybe, that's kind of like how slow down 10%. Right. Um, doesn't mean you
Tia Graham: need to like, go on…
Sonja Lyubomirsky: a Right. Exactly. Or take take breaks because you know, people always say like, oh, I'll do those things when I retire, when I'm older. And that's, as we know, like, not a great solution first of all. Like, who knows?
You know, maybe it won't be as healthy when that time comes, you know? Yeah. So, like, retire now, um, like I, you know, one of my colleagues has an idea that because we're all living and working went longer, we should sort of have a retirement in middle age. We should take like 10 to 20 years off, like between, I don't know, like 40 and 60 when you're strong and working again.
And while we're healthy and happy and, and then we start working again like, you know, from like 60 to 80 on, um, so yeah, that's sounds like an amazing idea. to me. So, um, yeah. So is there some way that we can, we could actually reduce, again, start with 10%, reduce what we're doing by 10% and I'm the first person who needs to take that advice.
Tia Graham: Yeah. Well, I think it's like Dan Harris, how he's like 10% happier. It's like slow down 10%. That's, it's doable. And you also just talked about. kind of just pausing and have like reflecting on like what makes me flourish and if working all the time is, is working for you, then it is, right? It's this individual.
But, um, but, but giving yourself permission to slow down a little and take breaks and to not Yeah, to not feel like you're not as successful if you do so. Sounds like mm-hmm. . Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Oh, well, Sonya, thank you so much. I wish I could keep talking to you, but this is the end of the show. Everyone, go get all of Sonya's books, check out the research on her website, and, um, thanks so much for coming on.
Sonja Lyubomirsky: Thank you, Tia. Pleasure. Really fun questions, and this is such a great topic. Yeah, I mean, I could talk about it for hours as well if I had, if I had more hours in the day. Thank you. Thank you.
Tia Graham: All good. Well, hopefully we can do it again in the future. Thanks so much. Yeah, great. All right. Bye.