The Power of Your Mind - Tim Ash

 
 

Podcast Summary 

This is episode number 74 with Tim Ash. Tim is an international keynote speaker, advisor, and bestselling author of “Unleash Your Potential.” He's also an expert in marketing and evolutionary psychology. In this episode, we are gonna talk about understanding more about your brain and how you think, and why you act, and we are gonna dive into the brain chemistry of some of the happiness chemicals.

I loved this conversation, and I know that you are going to as well, so Tim has a re ally cool background. He is a computer scientist, was president and CEO of future focus was the founding Chairperson of Conversion Conference Las Vegas. He's a LinkedIn master instructor, was the CEO and Co-Founder of Site Tuners, and I feel like he has some more books coming because I also know he's working on a killer new keynote talk all about polarization.

He's a fantastic guy based in San Diego, and I am excited for you to learn and be motivated by this episode.

 

Contact Information for Tim Ash: 

 

Podcast Summary 

Tia Graham: Hello, Tim.

Tim Ash: Hey, Tia. Great to be with you again.

Tia Graham: Yes. Welcome to the Arrive at Happy Show. I am very excited for this conversation and know the listeners are gonna love it. So if you are listening, get a pen and paper. If you're driving, make sure that you go back, cuz I, I know that you're gonna wanna be writing down some things that Tim is saying. So Tim, I wanna start off by inquiring about this idea of the primal brain. I talk a lot about the brain and happy brains. I wanna learn from you about the primal brain, and your subtitle also is, “how we think and why we act.” So I'm sure you could probably spend seven hours on this.

Tim Ash: Haha, or write a book about it.

Tia Graham: Yeah, write a book about it. Exactly. But knowing that we only have 25 minutes total, give me an overview and, why you're so passionate about it.

Tim Ash: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think that, uh, most of us have been working, under this wrong assumption for a couple of thousand years since the ancient Greeks, you know, they're saying basically people are rational, and if we could only tame those wild horses of emotions, then life would be good.

We'd all be like Mr. Spock or something and make perfect decisions all the time, and it turns out that's not how life works. Our quote-unquote rational, conscious brains are a relatively recent enhancement, and the driver is actually the primal brain. That's our subconscious, all of our automatic instincts, things we learned along the way from experience like “ouch, don't burn your hand on that hot stove.” That's all really important stuff for survival. And so the fast-acting never go to sleep, part of our brain is the one in charge, and that's what I call the primal brain. And occasionally when we're not tired, and we're, you know, had a good meal, then our conscious brain also functions.

But that one has much more limited capacity. And this is the important part. The conscious brain never actually decides anything. All it does is provide us with options and contingencies. You can't…

Tia Graham: It never actually decides. It's just…

Tim Ash: You can't have a decision without an emotional component. And so, basically, our lives are highly emotional.

We're much more susceptible to unconscious biases and our environment, and that's what I refer to as the primal brain.

Tia Graham: I mean, it explains so much. We were just talking about Global issues, and you could think that, okay. And so how come you are really passionate about this message, about teaching people about this?

It's obviously just from what you've just said, extremely useful. And the more people understand, the better, but, can you tell me just a little bit about your story that, how you were so passionate about it?

Tim Ash: My own odyssey with it began, at least back to my college days. I was computer engineering major, but also a double major in cognitive science.

So studying the brain has always been my bag. And then I was in the PhD program at UC San Diego for seven years and studied AI, in the early days. I'm really old, you know, but, I studied neural networks and basically how to sift through large amounts of data and then figure out subtle patterns in it.

That's like all the stuff is working now because we have the algorithms, like the stuff I worked on, and huge data sets from the internet. Now it's all taking off, but. Yeah, so I've always been interested in the brain. I ran a digital marketing agency, called Site Tuners for almost 20 years, and we created 1.2 billion in value for the Googles, Siemens, and Facebook of the world.

And all of that was based on this deep understanding of how people actually make decisions. And to me, if you're in marketing and you don't understand evolutionary psychology, you're playing with both hands tied behind your back.

Tia Graham: I love it. And so for people listening and we make thousands, I've read different numbers of how many decisions. There's a range of how many decisions we make every day, but I don't know, it's like 3,500, maybe more.

Tim Ash: Well, I think that the numbers I've seen is something like, you know, we process 10 to the 11th power of like, data coming in and only 40 or 60, per minute reach our conscious awareness.

So it's just like this tiny, tiny fraction of 1% is our conscious thought, but the brain is taking, think about everything going on around you. You know, the temperature in the room, the air currents, disturbing sounds, light, the pressure of the chair. If you're sitting down on your butt right now, the relationship of your limbs in space. That's why you don't stick salad forks in your forehead very frequently is you're aware of all of those body parts. So all that's flooding in, but it doesn't all get conscious, consciously processed. It's certainly not remembered afterward, that's for sure. Right. So the brain's a giant ignoring machine

Tia Graham: Because there's Well, there's so much coming in, right?

It's like you couldn't possibly. Yeah, it would. So I'm thinking of people listening who are working full-time, may or may not have kids, be in a marriage or partnership, and are doing their absolute best every single day. And I wrote down like they wanna be successful in their career. They wanna be healthy in their mind and body.

Most people. Have a goal of being as happy as they can. Right. And if you think, like for me, success, it's all areas of life, right? It's certainly not just your career. And so as it comes to, decision making and making decisions with everything, you know. Two questions. One is what are, what are the few key things that get in the way?

And, what is your advice? Like what's holding people back and what is your advice for that? With the lens of this understanding of how our primal brain works.

Tim Ash: Well, I have a whole chapter in my Unleash Your Primal Brain book about the chemistry of happiness. So I wanna, uh..

Tia Graham: Let’s start there. We'll start with happy. I talked about successful, healthy, happy.

Tim Ash: So, you know, one of the keys this is something we share with fruit flies, by the way. So it's not like distinctly human as is this chemical called dopamine? I'm sure you're familiar, and you're; we all know love dopamine's familiar, but most people mistake what that is.

They go, oh, that's, you know, you get a payoff for hitting a reward chemical. Well, actually it's more subtle than that. The idea is that it keeps you going forward in small little steps for things that enhance your survival value. Okay, so it says, how much energy should I allocate to chasing a potential?

Tia Graham: Say that again, enhance your survival. Did you say value?

Tim Ash: Yeah. Your chances of survival. So, so how much energy should I invest in chasing this goal? Now sometimes that might be food, sometimes it's a mate, but, you know, sometimes it's just not worth it. And, so, you know, if we use up too much energy, that's a problem too.

We, we die because we don't have enough food or something like that. So dopamine basically gives you little nudges forward based on your model of the world to chase things that you think are gonna help you survive. And if you don't get what you expect. Then there's literally this kind of oh sh*t circuit in the brain that says, whoa, that didn't work.

So you update your mental model. So dopamine, what it really does is it's there to maintain a more and more accurate mental model of reality. And whenever we have pain or things don't work out, dopamine updates our mental model in a hurry.

Tia Graham: So the, when I studied with the neuroscientist and, and she spent, there was a whole module on, on dopamine is.

It is known also as the reward transmitter, but you actually get the dopamine right before the reward, whatever that may be. It could be work, could be other things, right? So it is the motivator.

Tim Ash: Exactly, it's the one that says, use a little more energy to go move. And by the way, so this is a really funny one, and this explains gambling in the way that slot machines are set up and a lot of other things. We actually get more dopamine if there's a near miss if we don't quite get our reward, but we get close. It basically says, Ooh, if I tried a little harder.

Yeah, so you actually get like three, four times as mu dopamine. If you get that,you know, three, two cherries and a cherry that's slightly off on the slot machine, you go, oh, I almost had it. You know, and they, and even though the wind percentages are defined, those near miss percentages, they really screw with you and skew those so you think you're close to the actual win when you're not.

Tia Graham: Got it. Okay. All right. So knowing this, can you give listeners a tip or a tactic in knowing, you know, just connecting it to dopamine and something that they can do that will help them?

Tim Ash: Yeah. So, so here's the problem with dopamine and on all the other happiness, chemicals, oxytocin, endorphin, serotonin, all of them, you kind of need more and more.

It's just like any other drug addiction if you will. Uh, to get the same high, you need higher doses. So the problem is that, On the negative side, we can become gambling addicts or sex addicts, or experience seekers. Like we go, oh, I go to a lot of music festivals. Well, then you gotta go to a bigger one with even more stuff going on the next time.

Tia Graham: Cause of the hedonic adaptation.

Tim Ash: Yeah, exactly. Your brain just kind of normalizes to whatever you've already seen.

Tia Graham: Yeah. It's like, oh, we go to music festivals. This is not exciting anymore. Yeah.

Tim Ash: Yeah. Next time you have to go to, I don't know, skydiving or something, you know, to get the same rush.

Right. And so the problem with most of our happiness behaviors is in the long term, they actually lead to unhappiness, because we can't maintain this escalation. And, so the only tip I have, the only sustainable non-addictive source of happiness that I've found is, recapitulating gratitude. What are the good things in your life and being grateful for that?

Now there's examples of this in a lot of different practices and religious traditions. I like to

Tia Graham: Yeah, there's so much research on gratitude.

Tim Ash: Of course. Yeah, so for example, you might go to, bed thinking about all the good things that happened. Do like a lot of people, journal in the morning. I journal at night and just little bullet points. I never go back and read it again, but like, I saw a cat on my walk. My daughter said I love you too. When I said I loved her, you know, this is a rare occurrence with teenagers and all those little things, and you stack up those little wins and there's a bonus because at night, your brain processes, the things that happened in the last hour before sleep, about five to six times more than the rest of the day's events combined.

So you can kind of prime it and skew it to say, focus on the good stuff that happened to me.

Tia Graham: Prime your gratitude brain before bed. So, um, I've been researching the, and you know, have dove in and created a company around the science of happiness. So it's interesting when you say, oh, I could think of one thing. I'm like, I feel like I have 150 things. I feel like we could almost do a second episode.

Tim Ash: I'm up for it. Just say the word.

Tia Graham: I have that on, have that discussion of it. The first thing that came to my mind, which is, you know, the Dalai Lama’s message and many others, of course, is when you are helping others.

You know, when you are, when you are serving, whether it's other humans, animals, or the earth. Like my daughters and I volunteer at a retirement community and I just leave, you're, so, you're, and I literally, I'm like, I feel like it's oxytocin. I feel like there is serotonin, I feel like, so….I dunno.

Tim Ash: Yeah, you're absolutely right. So, the whole fourth part of my book is called Hyper-Social. It's about, we're the most social, you know, advanced mammals by far. And there's this really cool study, you've probably aware of it, they, they basically traced since the 1920s, I believe these entry class into Harvard and they're…

Tia Graham: Oh yeah, the Harvard grant study, you know.

Tim Ash: Yeah. The southy, you know, south Boston, you know, kind of white trash if you will cousins. And they traced them now for 70, 80 years and done all kinds of metrics on, and what they figured out is that, a high degree of social cohesion and social support is one of the most important factors in life. And in terms of, like outcomes of medical stuff and, and medical wellbeing. Yeah. Not having strong social support is the same as being a two-pack-a-day smoker.

Tia Graham: I know. That's how important it's, yeah. And I've been reading, the US Surgeon General just came out with the report on the loneliness Epidemic in the United States. Right. It's like, so knowing that you are a very busy entrepreneur, you're a speaker, you travel, how do you maintain social connections? Because you are a very busy professional.

Tim Ash: Well, I think you have to, the way I look at it is it's having a strong foundation.

I do all the things that support my well-being. Now, to me, that's sleep, which is the most foundational, 7-9 hours of uninterrupted sleep. It's daily life support. Anybody that tries to shortchange..

Tia Graham: I like that. Daily life support.

Tim Ash: Absolutely Uh, and then it's, close family relationships, which again, with two teens in the house, it can be a hit-or-miss proposition.

Tia Graham: Don't take it all personally, Yeah. It's the season.

Tim Ash: Yeah. And then there's, there's well-established practices. In my case, Tai Chi. Other people have yoga or things like that. There's a reason these things have existed in some form for thousands of years. They're like the mechanical, kind of nervous system operation of our body is pretty well understood. You do those things. You're going to regulate your nervous system and all that polyvagal theory stuff. I don't know if you're into that.

Tia Graham: Oh, a hundred, yeah. Our older daughter's autistic, so I have been learning more about the nervous system over the past 18 months than ever before because she actually has a nervous system disability. So, yeah.

Tim Ash: Yeah, So that's supportive. And then I, have a weekly men's circle through the Mankind project here in San Diego that I sit in every week. So, you basically, put the big rocks in first. All of the stuff you need to support big rocks in support your well-being.

And you have to build them in at the level of habit so that then inertia is actually helping you maintain them. It's probably trying a bunch of different stuff. It's about just doing things consistently that you know are good for you.

Tia Graham: Yes. So many people, many people that I work with in top two, struggle with keeping the big rocks in consistently. Because there is, and maybe we, maybe that we're gonna come back to dopamine with what we're gonna talk about, I don't know, because of the drive for financial, like financial success being more successful financially, and being more, uh, successful in your career, whether that be title, accolades, your business growth Et cetera. And so there is sometimes I would say a delay of like, I know many people are like, I know I should be doing date nights with my husband or wife. Right? Where I'm like, religion, I'm like, we need date nights to just, we have two little kids. I'm like, we need it. Or I know I should probably go visit my parents or I know I should exercise.

And, and people are really driven. They're not, but you know, they want the balance. But that, I think that's a real struggle. And so it'd be valuable to hear your perspective on like, They have the big rocks, but they're not always getting in there every week.

Tim Ash: Yeah, well, I think that, I'm gonna be a contrarian here, but pardon me if I offend anyone, but I think like all this, you can have it all, Tony Robbins-ish kind of bullsh*t. Well, sorry that I just said what I meant to say. I think it's a bullsh*t. Our lives are perfectly imperfect. You're never gonna have it together.

You go in and out of focus, it's happening in real-time and you're gonna die soon. Okay. So that's reality-based. Okay. So you can't be the best violin player in the world and the best ultra-marathoner in the world. No. You know, you, something's gonna fall off your plate. Money, family, relationships, whatever it is.

So I think it's, it's really a matter of, having a much closer alignment with whatever your core values are and to me, that's kind of my North Star. I have a mission statement and anything that's on point for that, I do that. And anything that's not, I just completely ignore. You can't do it all or have it all.

And so it's kind of in my life, I call it like a “hell yes” or “no.” Those are the only two responses that I have.

Tia Graham: So good, Tim, so, so good. You can say no, but could you share your mission statement?

Tim Ash: Oh, yes. Hell yes. I'll show my, so that's a hell yes. So, uh, my mission statement is I co-create a world of peace, safety, and love through joyous expression and service.

Tia Graham: So beautiful. Oh my gosh. So I agree. I actually say for what you, what you were talking about. I remember when Cheryl Sandberg's book came out. Lean in. Yeah. And I was a director of sales and marketing, and I think I was a new mom like baby and this, annd I literally was like, okay, do it all. And then no, I became so miserable and unhappy, and I'd always been really positive, and it was like, okay, I have different rocks. I have like literally human beings, little babies living in my house. Things are different. You know, I can't just work however many hours

Tim Ash: At least not in this life chapter. Absolutely. But I do wanna focus on one thing, and it's in my mission statement, and it also ties into something you talked about the and service part. Um, you talked about doing volunteer work, the in, in addition to dominance like, you know, any, any mammal tribe has serotonin, which is like, I feel good cuz I'm at the top of the social hierarchy and my needs are being met. That makes us feel good. Right? But in addition to that kind of dominance, which is really like, Bullying at its, its, you know, the ability to force others to do what you need 'em to do is this, human beings have this different emotion, which is, prestige, our need for prestige and that makes us wanna kinda be there in that cultural transmission chain and share what we know with others and especially in midlife or later, you kind of more consciously focus on that, or many of us do. And so transmitting knowledge, bringing other people along, realizing it's all this chain and we're pulling a part of it, actually gives us feelings of goodwill.

We want to help others. To know what we know. So whatever your area of expertise is, if you find an opportunity to share it or to teach it. And be of service that way. Not for money, not for that reason. But just to give back, that can be, be very fulfilling.

Tia Graham: Absolutely. No, and I, I recently was a guest speaker for the University of South Carolina, the hotel school, and it was, it was like 15 students, small class.

I was like, absolutely I could do it. You know, I did it virtually. And I have to tell you, the notes I got from the students were more powerful to me than sometimes what I hear from corporate executives of like, their messages. And the professor was like, I hope you keep speaking to young people. And I was like, yeah, I need to, that needs to be a part of it, you know? Um, yeah.

Tim Ash: I did, there's a, the seniors in the, the business program at University of San Diego. I've done an annual thing for them. And then I also mentor this group of kind of at-risk boys in this high school in, San Diego through an organization called Boys to Men.

You know, that stuff's really, really important.

Tia Graham: So good. Yes, and it fills you up and it talks about, yeah, it connects to the energy that then you have for others and of, of course…

Tim Ash: You know, it just makes you happy. I always say like, people are a hundred percent selfish. But the things that make you happy can be of benefit to others.

Tia Graham: yes, that's what the Dalai Lama is like, you know, people, the source of so much unhappiness is thinking too much about yourself, if you turn it outwards. So let's talk a little bit about others. Talk, from your perspective and also think about a tool or two or a tip, about oxytocin. Going back to that.

Tim Ash: Okay. Oxytocin. I'm just gonna bust some myths really quickly. So oxytocin, you know, again, people think, oh, it's the cuddle hormone. It's like, and it makes everybody happy, and it's not.

Oxytocin is this razor's edge and it's there for raising your kids like you can imagine when your babies are little and they're barfing all over you and crying. Nobody, an animal in distress, you normally wanna just stay the hell away from oh, so what Oxytocin

Tia Graham: Oh, like drop it off on someone else's doorstep.

Tim Ash: Right, right. Exactly. That's happened, by the way, but yeah, but you know what? What it does, oxytocin actually changes the boundary where we do that. So it makes parents want to take care of their offspring. And so it moves them into this circle of care and concern, which we need to survive. Has it, which is the mama bear is gonna kill anyone that comes near the Cubs.

Yep. So that's like stranger danger. And it's actually violence against the outgroup, so it's, and so in human beings, most animals have that ingroup, outgroup thing. But human beings, we have this third indeterminate state, which is, I'm not sure what your intention is towards me. You're an unknown. And so what happens with oxytocin and street drugs like Molly at Graves and so on, is that it actually shifts that unknown group into your in-group.

It makes you love them like you would your own family. Right, until the drug wears off. But that, so that's really what it's for. It's for parent-child bonding primarily. And protecting children from outside dangers.

Tia Graham: But with friendship. Or marriage or partnership. can you talk about that…

Tim Ash: Yeah. Well, in that, in that context, um, oxytocin is released. I, think, you know, you're in Canada, but I know you're, you've lived in the US but Yeah. In general North America and Northwest Europe, where we're kind of emotionally constipated if that's a fair thing to say. So one of the things that I tell people is that 20 seconds of skin contact releases oxytocin. You just need to give people a nice long hug.

Tia Graham: 20 seconds of skin contact.

Tim Ash: Yeah. So, so down.

Tia Graham: I sit here. I'm like yeah I give it to my kids all day long, I should probably be hugging my husband more.

Tim Ash: When you do have those date nights when you manage to fit that big rock in, you know, whole hands in the car on the way to whatever it matters.

Tia Graham: And friendship, of course. I mean, a lot of people are huggers. Yeah. All of that. So, okay. So when you are giving your sought-after keynotes, can you share a few of the, in addition to what you've shared, some messages or other pieces that you think are really important that people need to know?

Tim Ash: Hmm. Wow. That, that, that's a broad one.I would say that. The, most important thing is do things that are reality-based. Not the way you want 'em to be, but do things well, again, like, you know, so you, you talked about certain things. We are basically sponges that soak up the culture of the tribe.

Or the people around us. So like when you said, you know, I care about success. Well, the very notion of success first of all is just an idea in your head. And then you say, how I define success is I have to have all of these things, you know, family and money and career and prestige and all of that stuff.

So I caution people about like what we pick up and what we inevitably do from the environment around us. You have to really. Curate your thoughts and say, Hey, is that reality, or is that just like this backdoor thing that was snuck into my head by the larger culture around me?

Tia Graham: Oh my gosh. All I'm thinking about is social media when you're when you're talking.

Tim Ash: Yeah. Or I mean, just think about it like in our world of just like, business, it's like, it's, it's the hustle culture. It's, being on the Slack channel, it's pivoting and scrumming. So your company can be a unicorn. Like, we've bought into that stuff, right? And, and then you go, whoa, you know, does that make me happy?

So I’m really becoming kinda like a little outside observer of the culture that, and, and how you're taking in culture. That's, so, that's what I mean by reality-based.

Tia Graham: That’s really powerful. Observe how you are taking, and really there's all these micro, right? It's like your friend group.

Within your company, within your industry. Within your political group, within your country.

Tim Ash: Yep, and then, then my, so my new keynote is about the primal roots of polarization. I call it the, Caveman's Guide to understanding polarization and, you know, polarization's built into us, but you can become more aware of it, especially if you're a leader at a company.

I have this, Primal polarization toolkit. I talked about strategies for building conscious and intentional tribes. I mean, you have to become aware of how does your company polarizes it across departments. Is it by where people sit at lunch? Is it that they go or don't go to happy hour afterward?

You know, that might not work for a parent of young kids like you. You know, so, All of those things are really kind of tribal bonding and polarization issues that we as leaders need to consciously be aware of.

Tia Graham: And so, many people don't have everyone together right now, or if they do, you know, I'm talking about obviously the dynamics of work and how the future work is constantly changing and will forever be changed.

Um, so as it relates to polarization and I'm thinking of like separation and tribes, and we were just talking about the power of human connection. Before, of, of having people together. And, of course I, you know, in my book I talked about the power of friendship. Like you need, you know, you want people to feel like they belong, that they're valued, et cetera.

So, um, for a leader listening that might not even have polarization on their radar, right? They're just trying to like, keep everyone productive, keep everyone happy. What is the first step to actually step back and go, what, what actually is happening here with, with all, with my people?

Tim Ash: Oh, I'm, you're still a little funder from my, my news piece, but step one is to become, don't worry, I'm not a new speech on polarization.

It's okay. Like the step one is to really, uh, do kind of a mental inventory of the existing tribes. And when I say tribes, it's our tendency to band together for survival. Reasons. I don't mean, you know,, the cultural idea of tribes.

Tia Graham: Right. Not Steph Godin's like marketing tribes. Right?

Tim Ash: Right. Yeah. And, and so the, uh, if you, if you start just looking at your work environment, who communicates with whom, what things they talk about, what brings up strong emotions, that'll basically get you back to, what tribe they belong to. And people have overlapping tribes. To be clear, we, um, the streamlined haircut tribe, for example, or the Mercedes driving tribe we're the father of teenagers tribe. Some of those are temporary. Others are, we don't choose where we're born or, what color our skin is, what shape our body is. Some are involuntary. Uh, we don't choose to live in a war zone or to have childhood trauma or abuse. I mean, some of these things are not chosen at all.

But they affect us so many. Yeah. But basically, we're like overlapping tribal identities. And the question is, how dominant can you make consciously, can you make the work tribe? Then it'll supersede those other smaller identities. If not, those are gonna be the ones that bubble up to the top and control our behavior.

So every day your employees are bringing with them their set of tribal allegiances, and the question is, where in that hierarchy does your work tribe, uh, exist?

Tia Graham: It's gonna be fantastic. I. Immediately think of the hotel industry, cuz that's where I lived and worked with a lot of passion for 15 years. And just the departments, it, this is food and beverage, this is finance. This is sales, right?

Tim Ash: Yeah. Yeah. I used to run an international conference series. Yeah. So it's like, yeah, exactly. This is like, The food and beverage people and the, but they don't talk to the salespeople that are booking the stuff and then the Operations people that are cleaning the, the banquet halls and the rooms, you know, so it's just like everyone's got their tribal allegiances already and Yeah.

And so, um, there's definitely ways to reform and break and, and consciously build tribes. You should actually take advantage of polarization and our inbuilt tendency to do that, but do it in a. Healthy, way healthy. So the one thing I would ask leaders is like, this can definitely be misused, as you can see in the political sphere, if you use it for personal power as like the sickest reason to build tribes, but a lot of people

Tia Graham: which, yes, which is what is happening.

Oh, Tim, just tons of great Ideas and, um, just ways to look at things differently. If people wanna learn more about you and find you, where should

Tim Ash: they go? Oh, that's easy. Go to primalbrain.com. You'll find out all about my book and my public speaking, or timash.com. is the other place or connect with me on social media.

The only place I'm not anymore is Twitter because I'm not part of the, uh, crazy Elon Musk fanboy tribe.

Tia Graham: Well, I've never been on Twitter, so, we're connected there. Okay. Well, thank you for coming on. This was fantastic and look forward to talking to you again soon.

Tim Ash: Absolutely. My pleasure, Tia.

 
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